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Home » Installation » Still a Hot Topic; Gluing Solids on Concrete

Unfinished, prefinished, subfloor prep, etc.
3/5/2012 10:04:39 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
love reading the posts on this article Michelle wrote.

http://hardwoodfloorsmag.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=1575&zoneid=2
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3/5/2012 10:33:34 PM

TDMAC
TDMAC
Posts: 1196
Wow, wow, wow, wow wow What a lot of WOW!! Gota a lot to say and most is SPOT on. Gotta have another glass of Wine then reply!!
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3/5/2012 11:25:39 PM

Avi Hadad
Avi Hadad
Posts: 232
Tom, I have a suggestion: have another glass of wine and go to sleep.
Reply tomorrow. :-)
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3/6/2012 9:01:06 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
As you can see at the bottom I responded to this post:
Sam, You explained it correctly. I think I see the picture clearly. The Homeowner probably had no humidity control in their home and that caused the floor to fail.The installation co is going to pay $18,000.00 out of their pocket when they were told by the flooring and adhesive manufacturer that they were able to glue this solid floor to concrete. Now you are replacing it with engineered.Nothing else needs to be said. There is no reason to glue down solid floors


My feeling is as a professional you go to the job, if the ambient temp and rh is spot on, install it. We cannot be liable for endusers who fail to abide by maintaining the floor properly afterwards. I can tell my clients to get a humidifier or dehumidifier but I cannot stand there and force their hand. If by chance the flooring fails, has gaps or buckles due to improper maintenance of the interior environmental controls or lack of, it ain't my problem.
Like I mentioned in the thread, most if not all prefinished manufacturers these days have maintenance guidelines in the box or online. Thats the endusers responsibility to ask. Just like buying a car or appliance, misuse will cause a voided warranty. I always point that out. On a site finished floor the contractor should have guidelines printed out and have the enduser sign off on recieving it.

Grooving abides.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YOdh619j8c

http://youtu.be/5YOdh619j8c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YOdh619j8c&feature=youtu.be









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edited by grooving on 3/6/2012
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3/6/2012 10:52:58 AM

TDMAC
TDMAC
Posts: 1196
Agreed, there is now NO reason to glue down solid wood floors to concrete.
I just saw the results of a Carlisle floor glued to concrete. Looked like high tide . every board cupped. The client was very disturbed as he followed Carlisle directions to the T. It had bee 2 years and the cupping had subsided to a stable condition. Sanding & finishing the floor would also include removal and replacement of 5 areas that were buckled.
The cupping would have to be 45 cut and then straight cut but the wear layer above the tongue on the groove side would be so thin in most places, I could not guarantee they would not splinter off. The Carlisle Product was 5/8" Hickory.
What a shame when Owens, Maxwell, Real wood etc would have remained stable ! 2500 ft of floors ruined! Oh yes put down with Urethane adhesive. No moisture barrier!!
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3/6/2012 11:05:05 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
Tom, really? Your going to believe a DIY'r/endusers statement about that? Do you always believe everything they tell you? Like "I didn't wet mop that floor" .....ha ha the cleaning lady did. Like DIY'rs have the experience, education and tools to perform a task like that. I simply don't believe it.
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3/6/2012 12:36:43 PM

jfcwood
jfcwood
Posts: 171
I'm incredulous. A failure on a Carlisle product? That's absurd. I though their drying and milling methods made their products virtually bulletproof! At least that's what their on hold music led me to believe.

I realize that some current adhesives may be better at gluing solids than the chlorinated solvent adhesives but after being burned by one bad job of Oak shorts I'm of the opinion that gluing down solid is a bad idea. I've heard of a myriad of failures of the cheap thin Bruce solid and the 3/8" exotic solids that Kentucky Wood sold.
Gaining wisdom from the mistakes of others might not be as hard won but it's a lot sweeter.
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3/6/2012 2:25:48 PM

TDMAC
TDMAC
Posts: 1196
Yeah Grooving!! This guy built his own house on 80 acres on top of a hill . Little 8000 ft house. The craftsmanship was very sweet. His determination of installing the Carlisle up stairs nailed down & on the steps showed his New York Craftsmanship as a carpenter builder for 30 + years. He had some bozo sand it and that was not a great Job Like I do.
Where he went wrong is believing Carlisle information on gluing to a slab. He went by their book!! Good ol Urethane glue... Thought it was a membrane too. OOOppps... Lots of installers have found out otherwise. Urethane is not going to stop Moisture vapor unless it is the MVP type now. I still don't believe that. Hmmmm?
Lady with a mop?? Ha HA this house was King of the Hill type. NO mops!!
OH by the way 28 1/2 years ago I installed 1000 ft of solid oak Chickasaw Shorts in my house. Little fancy herring block I made myself with walnut feature strip, ( see pic) OH yea it is over the concrete slab of my 2856 sq ft that I designed and drew the plans . I sub contracted most of all labor but built a lot myself including this solid OAK Floor over SHEET VINYL smilesmile Yeah chlorinated solvent glue over vinyl. One flood and we replaced and sanded and finished the bevels out of that Wax finished Chickasaw shorts that cost me $.50 c / ft!

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3/6/2012 3:10:08 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
Goes to show you some people don't know how to protect wood from slab moisture. Did he test? Probably not. Did he use the right trowel? Probably not. Did he use a trowel on vapor retarder....probably NOT!! Let me see, Bostik has had MVP4 for how long? Stauf has had theirs how long? Nuts I say!!

I want you to go demo the buckled parts of that floor, measure the thickness of the adhesive, check for a trowel on vapor retarder, measure the thickness of that and report back with photos. Then we'll discuss DIY installation. I bet he dnt weight the floor or roll it either.

Nice rug ya got there.....no not on yer head, the dining room floor. wink




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edited by grooving on 3/6/2012
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3/6/2012 6:31:15 PM

TDMAC
TDMAC
Posts: 1196
Grroving,
I will bet he did all that ! But I will never install 3/4" solid planks on concrete unless they are kerfed , straight as an arrow, shorter boards, and quarter sawn. . When I did the 3/4" shorts in my home, they fit tight together and dont have the power to move, plus my membrane has kept the slab moisture from causing any problems.
Nuts to that guy from me too, cause he didnt sign my contract to refinish his Carlisle Floors!! BOOYA.
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3/6/2012 8:17:51 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
TDMAC wrote:
Grroving,
I will bet he did all that ! But I will never install 3/4" solid planks on concrete unless they are kerfed , straight as an arrow, shorter boards, and quarter sawn. . When I did the 3/4" shorts in my home, they fit tight together and dont have the power to move, plus my membrane has kept the slab moisture from causing any problems.
Nuts to that guy from me too, cause he didnt sign my contract to refinish his Carlisle Floors!! BOOYA.


OK, couple things about that guy.

Why didn't he have Carlisle out there to fitz it or help fitz it? I bet they already did an inspection on it and it failed to pass. You cannot merely look at a floor and tell me whats wrong with it, especially a gluedown!!! OK, maybe on a couple issues you can but not gluedown. One more reason I stopped doing L&N inspections, they want you to guess and put yer AZZ on the line.

Why didn't you throw in an offer to fix, then S&F? Big monry your left on the table.You can't just sand a floor thats buckled and lose, you trying to con me? Bet not enough expansion space either.

Also, you can bet he did that, he can say he did all that but he needs documentation. You call fly me out there and I will find out, see fee schedule.

Finally, you said before how strong urethane adhesive is, that it can "S stong it can pull chunks out of 8,000psi concrete. Now all the sudden it cannot hold a silly piece of wood to concrete. BOOYA back
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3/6/2012 9:19:49 PM

TDMAC
TDMAC
Posts: 1196
OK grooving. Lesson #1 From da back to da front.
Ya that Urethane has minimum elasticity so 12 " of expansion room and the wood ...would still buckle in the middle of da room!! Booya back. You dunt get it that solid wood has the power to expand and lift that wood off the concrete & will not travel laterally across the room. Cmon. you know the center of the MASS iz da AZZ and that is whut BUCKLES first! Expansion Samansion Space...Cmon yeah I will bet it broke chunks with it as it lifted. Urethane aint bubbly GUM!

Now I aint no INSPECTOR GI dude!. I went to bid on da job. He wuz gonna fitz the buckles hisself and I would get it flat & shiny but he dont pay me. I gallop off in da sunset!

By da way, buddy, you forgot I wuz ARMY...CYA. My ol worn out AZZ is always covered.
Yeah, sure Carlisle will come here to Fresberg for a complaint. Uhumm I will fly you out in a Cessna if you buy da GAZZ. My fee!

Dont glue solid planks to concrete...It wont work!!
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3/7/2012 8:57:23 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
I forgot you invented mositure. wink

So your basis for not installing solid to concrete is one example of a DIY installation gone bad......so sad.
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3/7/2012 9:11:13 AM

kevind
kevind
Posts: 39
isnt it kinda funny that Carlise now has a engineered floor? Why? because it preforms better across the board especially when glued to concrete. duh! Their is just no justifiable reason not to use a nice 5/8 with a sawn 4/5 mill top. The material is more expensive but by the time you figure in the vapor barrier and glue needed for the solids its a near wash. installing and finishing a 5/8 eng is going to be a breeze compared to the solid install. Easier install means less fatique , less time and a overall nicer product to work with which in turn equals a happy installer and customer.
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3/7/2012 11:34:05 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 955
True that Kevind, there are 3/4 3 plys out there as well that can be resurfaced just as many times as a solid. However, installing a solid on concrete can be done. I used to install lots of Bruce Natural Reflections without a problem and still install thinner ones.

I will suggest a better engineered for installation to a client, but I will not run aways from a solid either.
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3/7/2012 12:30:07 PM

Jerry Best
Jerry Best
Posts: 57
I agree with the "No Solids direct to concrete" statements. The one issue not spoken of is the TRASH engineered wood sent into this country that does not perform. Comparing the TRASH sold as quality compared to solids direct to concrete;;;;;; The industry is better off placing a sealer on the concrete and gluing solids direct to concrete.
Even major manufacturers with wonderful reputations are bringing in TRASH claiming quality, integrity and value.
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3/7/2012 1:06:01 PM

David Harrison
David Harrison
Moderator
Posts: 396
One of the very first things you would do to qualify a concrete slab for any glue down is to check for the presence of sealers......cannot ( or should not) glue to sealers.....
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3/7/2012 1:07:04 PM

David Harrison
David Harrison
Moderator
Posts: 396
Ray, are you an inspector?
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3/7/2012 8:07:34 PM

Relleum
Relleum
Posts: 1
Ray Darrah wrote:
I agree with the "No Solids direct to concrete" statements. The one issue not spoken of is the TRASH engineered wood sent into this country that does not perform. Comparing the TRASH sold as quality compared to solids direct to concrete;;;;;; The industry is better off placing a sealer on the concrete and gluing solids direct to concrete.
Even major manufacturers with wonderful reputations are bringing in TRASH claiming quality, integrity and value.


This is *exactly* what I am afraid of! I already experienced first-hand the subpar quality of Armstrong laminate flooring. Unfortunately, they would not give me a refund; instead issuing me a credit for the materials that I can use with any other product they carry. I am so turned off by laminate, that this time around I'm definitely going with wood. But since I have concrete slab, the "safe" choice is engineered -- and I'm really worried about the quality of their engineered products. I don't want trash! There's got to be more discussion about what reliable alternatives there are to the bigger name brands. I know that my $5K credit with Armstrong will only get me so much material for my 1600ft installation, so I would benefit greatly from learning about better quality manufacturers. Shoot, it would also be great to know what to avoid within Armstrong's offerings!
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3/8/2012 8:04:23 AM

jfcwood
jfcwood
Posts: 171
I may have seen an earlier post by you remarking on how the laminate you bought was noisy and the gloss piano finish showed scratches. It sounds like you got what you paid for. Laminate is noisy and gloss finishes show scratches. It would appear that you had false expectations. Unfortunately that happens a lot since many people today shop online or buy stuff at home stores from people who were yesterday working in the garden department. It's fortunate that Armstrong is giving you a credit.

Armstrong brands, aka Bruce, Hartco and Robbins have many good engineered products. For the best result stay in a medium color range with a satin finish. If you can find a product that's got some woodgrain texture on the surface or even a handscraped look that will disguise the scratches, dings and wear the floor will inevitably get. Use floor protectors on furniture that gets moved, place mats inside and outside at entry doorways and clean the floor frequently for the best result concerning wear and scratching.

If you choose an engineered product look at the construction and thickness of the top layer. Their Robbins products have some of the thickest veneers (1/2" thick 3 ply) while the Bruce and Hartco have the thinnest (3/8" 5 ply). Also the hardness of the wood specie you use is of importance.
Even the cheapest Bruce products likely have a lifetime construction warranty so your fears about the quality of construction are unfounded in my opinion. I've seen them bond test the panels of engineered wood by pulling one at random from the production line and immersing it in a pool of water.

There are scads of information about the reliable alternatives to the big brands. Much of it is contained within the skull of a reputable experienced floor retailer who will be there if you have a problem with the floor you choose. If they warn you that the shiny black 8" wide plank you like isn't a good idea, heed their warning. There are also online resources with product reviews.
The only warning I would have concerning Armstrong products would be with the thin Bruce solid products (do they even still have them?) and with the cheap builder stuff they have that have lots of character and short lengths.
Sorry to sound harsh about your unfortunate experience with laminate flooring but that's what laminate flooring is. It's good that you do more research before purchasing a wood floor.
edited by jfcwood on 3/8/2012
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