2/4/2012 12:40:03 AM
steve e
Posts: 22
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We have a bit of a problem on our hands. I purchased about 1,000 sq ft of reclaimed wood (mix of red and white oak, about 4 1/2" wide) flooring that was milled in L.A. from old beams.
This flooring is in a large room--about 24' x 24' with 10' ceilings in a fairly modern-architecture house. The contrast of "rustic" and modern will be really cool.We had our regular flooring installer (provided by GC) install it. This installer had done hw floors for us 14 years ago and they have been great--no problems. The manufacturer said the wood should acclimate for a couple weeks--I mentioned this to the installer--but didn't hold him to it. He installed it the next day (after delivery) and it looked great--very tight. 3 weeks later and gaps really developed. A few are the width of 2 quarters. Many the width of a nickel (1/16 inch) At this point I'm not in the blame game--there is partial culpability all around. Manufacturer should have been sterner in warning, flooring guy should have tested the moisture content and compared with our old flooring, and I should have not been so naive. My biggest regret is the flooring installer didn't check the wood for moisture content. Perhaps he doesn't own a meter?
The flooring has been in now for about 2 months (nailed on top of vapor barrier to sub-floor--no glue-down) . Our intent from the beginning has been to finish it (and our old oak floors) with an Osmo hardwax oil product.
I had another installer (recommended to me by another more expensive reclaimed wood provider that I probably should have gone with) look at it. He measured the moisture content of this wood and it now reads "12" while our old flooring reads "9". The new flooring is not attached to the old--they are in different rooms--this is for reference. He said the only way to fix it would be to remove it and reinstall, which would cost about $6K plus another $1K for additional flooring. Our original installer said he would reinstall it for about $5,200. Our project as a whole (major re-build) is already way over budget, and I'm concerned that the already "tender" reclaimed wood (which is very beautiful in its color variation but somewhat fragile) will get really trashed by removing and re-installing.
The original installer suggested squirting glue into the bigger gaps, and then adding putty. Then sand, stain, and finish.
A friend (who is a cabinet maker but has worked on some floors) suggested cutting strips of wood for the bigger gaps --nickel-sized or greater--and gluing them in. He even suggested using a slightly darker wood (walnut) to accentuate the inlays. However there is some concern with how well this will last, and if it will splinter and cause a hazard. These slivers can't be too deep. He said he thought he could get most of the big ones in a few hours of work with my help.
Achitect had suggested having the installer make a filler by mixing sawdust from the wood with some sort of glue or epoxy. However some have said this may crumble in time, and there is some question as to how well it will take the hardwax oil finish. Installer does not seem into doing this.
Altogether, the flooring is divided between great room (about 600 ft.) and (after a step down) a bedroom wing (about 400 ft.).
I've learned a lot in the process--of what shouldn't be done. And to treat reclaimed wood with kit gloves to some degree.
I need to figure out what to do but don't have unlimited funds. I feel bad having the entire financial burden to fix this but realize there's really not much I can do about this. **Maybe** I could get the manufacturer to rip me 150 ft. or so of new wood at a deep discount. But that's about it. I'm still looking at about a 50% increase over our original flooring budget.
Interior designer says it would be too big a can of worms to remove and replace--there might be collateral damage elsewhere--maybe fireplace tile, etc. He thinks with carpets, furniture, etc., it will go away.
But I really don't want to leave the gaps and have them collect dirt.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks!!!
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2/4/2012 12:52:31 AM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Steve e,
O.M.G. no comment!
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2/4/2012 10:44:33 AM
grooving
Posts: 483
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What does an interior designer know about wood? Color, thats about it.
I see posts like this just about every other day on forums. It still amazes me that installers will jump on a floor as soon as it hits the door. I realize times are tough and people need money but why make it tougher.
Also makes me wonder what guys did before meters existed. But I remember my old boss making me go out and install wood the next day, but he was a carpet man.
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2/4/2012 12:07:23 PM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Grooving, Wonder NO more about testing concrete slabs for moisture..We did the MATT test, no Matt didn't have a last name,  we used a piece of Sheet vinyl or actually before 1958 we used Linoleum. Yes we glued 9x9 engineered flooring down with Bruce Cold Bond Mastic. or Laykold an black emulsion.
The Matt test ( like black rubber Mats) were laid and taped down in a few areas of the slab and left for 72 hrs with heat in the house. If there was no visible signs of moisture we laid the adhesive and let it tack up overnight. Had a chalk line hanging from a door to the base of the opposite wall and snapped it , then laid the parquets and walked out on them as we proceeded...1975! Of course I told you I grew up on that floor in 1947! No, I didn't lay it then! I was 5.
I do still have the 1948 Moisture Register Co. meter that my dad had in those days. It is an exact copy of what was used to check the Birch wood used to build the "Spruce Goose". I saw that meter in Longbeach, Ca. where the 'Goose' was displayed. It is a wood meter primarily but I have tested it on concrete. It has 6 buttons, non invasive probes. I should send you a picture!
Now about Decorators?? Wow could I talk story there. Visually dynamic people with NO Specific product knowledge on many aspects of buildings. Many are very problematic to proper progress in home design. Designers are some better than Decorators, but not much, then there are Architects...hmmm; specification readers and writers, with lots of seat time and little OJT ( on the job training) .
I know that for sure because I ARE one...Almost. OMG, 6 yrs of college for that degree and 6 jobs working for many..Drew and designed a bunch of buildings and homes in my years! Thanks to the US Army for getting me out of there!!
This scenario stated by by Steve e is a nightmare!! What a mess!
Why wasn't it acclimated??? The Architect said WHAT to do with Filler...???
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2/4/2012 2:44:04 PM
grooving
Posts: 483
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Yes we glued 9x9 engineered flooring down with Bruce Cold Bond Mastic. or Laykold an black emulsion.
I'll believe that when you pry my fingers from the cold plastic asphalt Mastic.
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2/4/2012 5:49:04 PM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Great stuff Grooving. You are that OLD??? By the way, my cousins and ancestors made that asphalt saturated Portuguese Cork. I have only worked on one of those jobs. Great stuff. I have refinished a few. One my Pop laid in 1948. All pecan 1-1/2" x 18 splined over that cork. still down and a fabulous dance floor.
Where did you get that ancient postings?? Awesome. We were Robbins distributors in the 50-60's.. Permacushion system.
That is what Steve e might have used I wish him Luck.
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2/5/2012 11:34:26 AM
grooving
Posts: 483
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Tom, I found those while surfing the internet and have them stored in my pictures. Amazing what you can find on the internet. W
We need more adhesives like that one, bring back aspphaltic mastic s and asbestos! See the guys pants. LOL
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2/5/2012 11:49:50 AM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Darn, the pix didn't come up. I know what the pants would look like.. BLACK!!! Lots of stories about black mastic including the lizard that got under the door without threshold ...He made it 4 ft Those were the days!
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2/5/2012 2:45:02 PM
Dr. Floor
Posts: 24
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Steve,
Upon the purchase of the floor material did you get a guarantee of what the flooring moisture content would be from the manufacture??? Secondly it is the responsibility of the flooring installer to take MC reading and either accept or decline the wood floor acceptability. If flooring MC readings are over 3% of baseline (average MC for geographical location) one could expect irreversible damages to the material including inconsistent width size, twisting, bowing, splitting, etc. which you are experiencing. It is essential to purchase flooring material with the MC targeted for the geographical area to which is to be installed.
At this point the floor is performing to be expected with 12% documented and still looking to drop another 3%. There is no fix for this floor other than replacement and purchase materials guaranteed to be at 9% upon installation. Far as who is responsible for this flooring disaster, it is shared among all parties involved.
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Dr. Floor
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2/5/2012 4:51:24 PM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Words written by Steve e,
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" The manufacturer said the wood should acclimate for a couple weeks--I mentioned this to the installer--but didn't hold him to it. He installed it the next day (after delivery) and it looked great--very tight. 3 weeks later and gaps really developed. A few are the width of 2 quarters. Many the width of a nickel (1/16 inch) At this point I'm not in the blame game--there is partial culpability all around. Manufacturer should have been sterner in warning,"[/font]
Dr. floor is partially correct in my opinion. Since Steve e wasn't stern with the installer on acclimation, he has assumed a ton of that responsibility.
It really seems to me that he was in control of all the material status and conditions. The Manufacturer was NOT stern enough??? What?? When you buy a Ford, should the Manufacturer be stern on when you change the oil??
Dr. floor is totally correct that the whole floor should be removed and replaced. That is a mess!!
my 2 cents.
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2/5/2012 9:10:47 PM
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 161
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I think you guys are giving up too easy!
Where is the skill, pride, professionalism, the artist in each of you to save this Floor!
Come on guys! where is your "Can DO!!" attitude?
--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt
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2/5/2012 9:46:39 PM
steve e
Posts: 22
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Unfortunately I didn't get a guarantee regarding the moisture content from the manufacturer., who is a relatively small-time flooring manufacturer that specializes in turning reclaimed wood beams into flooring, panelling etc. I think what they **SHOULD** have done was provide a written disclaimer stating that the wood was newly-milled and has a moisture content of xxx and should acclimate before installation. SOME sort of disclaimer. But they didn't provide anything. And the installer was unfamiliar with the product.
Honestly, what I think I should do is rip up the entire floor (1000 ft) and then use the "best of" to re-install into just the great room and stairway landing (about 800 ft or). Then put in new 2" oak in the kids rooms and hallway which would match the kitchen/family room. (the great room is about 5" higher in flooring elevation--so there's a step down from this room both to the bedroom wing and the kitchen/family room) I'm reluctant to have the original installer do this re-install though he's done a fine job with the "standard" off-the-shelf flooring product (not reclaimed). I'm mostly reluctant because he only seems to have experience with Woca as an oil-based product and I would prefer something to go in with more solids content, like Osmo.
Ideally the flooring manufacturer would give me some sort of refund. Otherwise I think the only thing I can do is post a review on Yelp and give a low rating and a big caveat emptor to other potential buyers of flooring from this outfit.
Though, yes, I wish there was a flooring superhero who could save the day here. I'm near Pasadena, CA, if super-install-floor guy exists. 
This has been a HUGE re-build undertaking--many things have gone right--there have been some great subs (plumber, tile, drywall, plaster) so I guess it could be worse.
I'll post some pics later so you can see what I'm dealing with.
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2/5/2012 9:55:30 PM
grooving
Posts: 483
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Well reclaimed shouldn't be any harder than new wood really. Just takes some communication between the installer and who milled it. Plus some checking of moisture content and fit. TDMAC is closer than I am, but I would do Rubio Monocoat.
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2/5/2012 9:58:38 PM
hbrickman
Posts: 94
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Steve, based on the amount of shrinkage and the MC reading of 12% this material still has some more shrinking to do. If you decide to salvage any of the flooring, you must dry it to less than 9% before re-installing it. This Flg was not properly kiln dried by the manufacturer and based on your information does not meet wood flooring industry standards. If you contact me, I will discuss your options in settling this matter to minimize your financial hardship.
edited by hbrickman on 2/5/2012
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Brickman Consulting
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2/5/2012 10:17:08 PM
steve e
Posts: 22
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hbrickman--yes I'm aware that once removed the flooring needs to dry some more. Luckily I have a 2-3 week period where this could be done without holding up other trades.
Here's the floor:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60691494@N07/6827577989/
and some closeups--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60691494@N07/6827579077/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60691494@N07/6827577409/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/60691494@N07/6827579873/
edited by steve e on 2/5/2012
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2/5/2012 11:24:29 PM
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 161
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See, See, Dr. Howard will cure the ills, and make things right.
yea, yea, yea, yea, yea,
Anyway, good game tonight
edited by selvalee on 2/5/2012
--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt
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2/6/2012 12:18:23 AM
TDMAC
Posts: 528
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Steve e,
Yes I am fairly close; Fresno. All I do is Hardwood flooring. email me at tdmac@valleyhardwoodflooring.com if you care to further discuss a solution. Check out my website also.
Maybe I can visit and help.
TDMAC
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2/6/2012 8:16:12 AM
Dr. Floor
Posts: 24
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Selva it's not about saving the floor it's about structural integrity. With gap size the width of 2 quarters and still with 3% further to go there will be little or no tounge left in the groove. No Dutchman or filler pieces will correct this condition, replacement is the only option. If one intends to reuse the material the widths will vary dramatically and one would have to resize boards by ripping groove side and regroove. Based on labor cost it maybe cheaper to buy new material.
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Dr. Floor
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2/6/2012 3:40:51 PM
big_al
Posts: 21
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I'm not an expert on this type of problem, but I would think you would loose alot of money and material ripping this floor out. Would filling this floor with epoxy or PL glue be an option here, after the floor is finished shrinking?
Did you ask the installer to install right after the floor was delivered? All too often my customers don't want to have wood sitting around their houses and ignore my written and verbal warnings.
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2/6/2012 4:11:44 PM
steve e
Posts: 22
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The manufacturer suggested filling with epoxy when I called him a couple weeks ago.
The flooring was milled on November 15. It sat in a warehouse in L.A. (about 15 miles from here) for a couple weeks, and then was picked up by my installer on around Dec 5--so after having sat for about 3 weeks. When I informed the manufacturer that it was being picked up, I asked him to (in an email) "If you have any special tips about this material (filling voids, etc.) please let him know."
The flooring was installed the next day. I was in no way pressuring the installer to have it in by a certain date. We have been living at an apartment down the street during this process.
Heat had not been turned on at our house yet. The head didn't get turned on until a week or so later because the gas had been disconnected.
The installer soon learned that there wasn't enough material to complete the job. Turned out that the manufacturer had mistakingly held back some lumber to make stair treads for us despite the fact we never asked him to do so in writing. They then did the final milling of the material left for us and it was picked up by our installer Dec 16. Unfortunately they gave our installer the wrong wood. The manufacturer then sent out someone on or around Dec 16 to swap out the wood lot. It was then installed the next day.
It's interesting because we have two samplings of wood with almost a month difference of milling time. The installer who came out last week said there was some difference between the 2 lots but I don't have his numbers.
I called and emailed the manufacturer today and asked them to come out and meet with me, GC and installer to figure out what to do about this. No response thus far. I ordered a Delmhorst wood moisture meter and a machinist's ruler so I can document the flooring before we rip it out, and hopefully (per Brickman) back-calculate the original moisture content.
At this point I'm out about $9,400 in materials (paid) and about $2,200 in labor (not paid) and potentially another $5K to pull it, let it dry some more and re-install. Plus I'd surely be short in material so would likely change the kids' bedrooms either to non-reclaimed oak or possibly cork like the upstairs bedrooms are going to be.
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