1/24/2012 8:30:52 AM
big_al
Posts: 21
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I sanded, water popped, stained (oil) and polyurethaned (OMU) a 6" 4 bar red oak parquet floor a very dark color and upon buffing 180 grit prior to the second coat of poly, the stain had buffed off in many areas on the floor.
A week prior I had come over to do a sample patch on the floor, water popped and tried a bunch of different colors for the owner. I did notice the floor flaking and ignored the warnings. Sure enough the entire floor showed flakes after water popping but I didn't pay much attention to it.
On top of this, there were obvious signs subfloor movement with long cracks running down a hallway. Many of the parquet pieces are every so slightly loose / bouncy throughout the floor and I believe this also contributed to the edges buffing off with my 180 grit.
The owner's friend thought that too much water had been applied, however my process was not any different than usual. I mopped on water, spread it very thin. The floor had started drying within 10-15 minutes.
There really wasn't anything I could do to touch up the floor because there were so many pieces with clear edges.
The owner really didn't like the parquet to begin with so he decided to tear it out and have me install new prefinished flooring.
Has anyone ever experience this type of "flaking" with parquet? I don't think I ever want to stain a parquet floor again unless it's a new, unfinished floor over a solid subfloor.
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1/24/2012 12:14:52 PM
geniasmith
Posts: 192
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next time, steel wool it instead of screen. Before screens came out, it's all we used between coats. Or fiber pad it. Make sure to get all the steel wool up if using wb.
edited by geniasmith on 1/24/2012
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1/26/2012 12:36:06 PM
mjurkovich
Posts: 2
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We have stained scores of parquet floors (mostly red oak) over the years. We have gotten excellent results without ever water-popping one of them.
If the floor is loose, you are in trouble before you begin. Sounds like removal was the best option. Agreed that steel wool is the best option to go over stain with... but if you have "floaters", stain will still be removed.
Also sounds like your blocks were not installed properly to begin with. Subfloor shrinkage will usually explain a long gap in the installation. Over plywood underlayment is preferrable. Did you gain any insight into this as you removed the existing floor?
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1/26/2012 4:28:43 PM
big_al
Posts: 21
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I did. In many places the glue had not adhered well. Could see trowel lines in many areas. Subfloor was osb.
On a two coat job how do you knock down enough grit with just steel wool?
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1/26/2012 4:41:59 PM
geniasmith
Posts: 192
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Don't put the grit in there in the first place. Otherwise, steel wool, then go over it with a piece of fine handsand paper and get it out by hand.
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1/26/2012 6:12:18 PM
mjurkovich
Posts: 2
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We just use steel wool over the stain application. Then we used a screen or fine paper between coats of poly. No matter... if floaters are riiding high, you are going to remove finish and stain from those edges. Glue failure could be due to too much open time... no rolling... not enough adhesive spread...etc
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1/30/2012 4:28:36 PM
jfcwood
Posts: 64
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You say flaking. Was the stain sanded off only on the edges of the boards or was it within the boards? If it was on the edges I'd suspect the water made the pieces cup slightly. If it was within the boards I'd suspect you had shake that was swelled and split by the water. On water popped floors we always charge extra and do three coats of poly. We stain, poly, maroon pad, poly, maroon pad or screen and final coat. Even then you can encounter a flake where the color gets sanded off. For these I touch up with a marker, apply some spray poly and hand prep before the final coat.
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2/3/2012 8:30:55 PM
big_al
Posts: 21
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It was within the parquet pieces and on the edges. There were definately split pieces. I like the three coat idea with just a maroon pad buff on the first coat. Would definitely prevent problems. I guess from now on three coats for anything water popped should be my standard. Thanks for the advice!
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2/7/2012 10:08:57 AM
jfcwood
Posts: 64
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Glad to help. It sounds like the floor had wind shake. I've seen that before on parquet where one board gets made into many small pieces. Water popping, bleaching using aniline dye or water-borne finish can make it show up.
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2/15/2012 2:18:06 PM
Avi Hadad
Posts: 81
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You got lucky this time. Next time check the MC before and after water popping. Try hand sanding on a dark stained floor, leave the buffer in the van. Also try to eliminate screening from your stain jobs. I have yet to see screens in the woodworking world.
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2/16/2012 7:41:39 PM
moderntech
Posts: 79
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Anytime you're a little worried, I like the Norton sand dollars for just the right level of aggressiveness in inter coat abrasion. I think that they make a better contact to the floor for even burnishing than pads and strips. They don't over buff the floor unless you're hammering down way too hard. I also would suggest to buff on the stain with carpet next time. It does a REALLY good job of burnishing in the stain and pushing down all that grain raise. Burber carpet is best if possible
edited by moderntech on 2/16/2012
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2/20/2012 5:28:28 PM
taylor hardwood
Posts: 6
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water popping can cause more problems than it's worth, san the scratches out I burnishall parquet. if you must pop the grain use denatured alcohol a third of grain raise and dries very fast.
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2/23/2012 6:02:43 PM
big_al
Posts: 21
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I buffed it on with carpet. Just a thought: on this job the customer had large commercial fan that i used to dry the water. Would drying too fast cause the wood to warp? I still waited about two hours as i normaly do.
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2/24/2012 7:42:56 AM
jfcwood
Posts: 64
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From what you've described I believe your problem was caused by water exacerbating wind shake.
http://forestry.about.com/od/foresthealth/ss/Ring-Shake-And-Wind-Shake.htm
edited by jfcwood on 2/24/2012
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2/24/2012 11:50:08 AM
johannes
Posts: 154
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Big-Al,
From what you describe the adhesion between the subfloor and parquet was bad. That is where the problem lays, any water exposure can warp/distort a small parquet strip easily if it does not adhere well and cause problems with the sanding/finishing process. Waterpopping the 'conventional way" will allow a lot of water to get between the fingers/strips and further exarbate the adhesion problem.
When was this build/installed? What kind/type of glue was used? Where was the adhesion failure in the adhesive (at the OSB side or the parquet side)? Wondering if the OSB was the waterrepellant type.
If it was loose than it was loose, running the BM over will only loosen it more.
Johannes
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2/24/2012 3:01:50 PM
hbrickman
Posts: 94
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A properly installed floor should not fall apart with water popping. Here is where it gets touchy. If something goes wrong during or shortly after you work on the floor, some customers are going to "blame" you for the problem. If the roof leaks while you are working in a building, are you responsible for fixing it? No. So one approach would be to point out the problem(s) to the owner as they occur, then fix it, then put the cost of the fix on the final invoice. Many customers understand that extra work costs extra. Some won't. If everyone you do business with is a royal PITA and expects you to do all manner of extra work for no charge, you can add that cost factor into the estimates OR change the way you present your cost estimates to make the customers acknowledge that extra work costs extra. Most of us would rather have our repair work done by a professional who tells us what should be done then gives some options to work with in a rational objective manner. Over time we learn to trust professionals to do the right things at a fair price. Hopefully, our customers will likewise trust us in the same way.
Since I have used water based finishes almost exclusively for close to 20 years, I have found it more useful to try to make the bad things happen at a point in time when fixing them isn't so difficult. I have started to pop the grain on most floors just prior to discing. I use plain water after the final edging and big machining is complete. I let the floor sit overnight to thoroughly dry out. It seems to disc faster with fewer circular scratches. If there are any boards to repair/replace I would rather do it before the final sanding, stain and finishing.
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Brickman Consulting
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