Advertisement

Hardwood Floors Forum

Welcome to the HF Forum.
If you are new to the forum,
you must register a free account
before you can post.

 Login Name:

 Password:

 
register | lost password   open id
Messages in this topic - RSS

Home » Troubleshooting/Inspections » checking of engineered wood

For problem floors and inspection-related issues.
11/30/2011 2:14:55 PM

Sharlene
Sharlene
Posts: 3
We have had a lot of discussions on the solid wood checking issue. I would like some discussion on engineered wood as well.
A question: If it is a rotary peel product, checks are definitely there in the manufacturing process. If checks are inherited in the manufacturing process, who would be liable when hidden checks appear in the consumers home at a later date? These rotary peel products will perform fine in Florida but will check in dry areas like Nevada. If I understand correctly, it is the rotary peeling process that creates a lot of tiny checks. Comments?

Sharlene
0 permalink
12/1/2011 3:54:32 PM

Selva Lee Tucker
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 162
Sharlene,
one of the main topics at each Guild class by the wood professors is engineered wood manufacturing issues, and checking is a big part of that.
The question to always ask is, is it just the way wood is or is it from manufacturing. There are many, many causes for issues with engineered wood. I suggest, you sign up for the class this May 31 - 3. There is a post, "Going to St. Louis" below this one.

Some if it is manufacturing, and some is just wood,being wood.

wood happen, checks happen. and then, there are the different finishes. I urge you to think about attending the class. You will learn a lot and enjoy it. Heck, even "Grooving" says he will be there, with his wife, the lawyer. I think she is going with him to keep him out of jail. not sure, but, I think that is the reason.

just kidding guys.

lee

--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt
0 permalink
12/1/2011 5:08:45 PM

Jim Decker
Jim Decker
Posts: 241
selvalee wrote:
Sharlene,
one of the main topics at each Guild class by the wood professors is engineered wood manufacturing issues, and checking is a big part of that.
The question to always ask is, is it just the way wood is or is it from manufacturing. There are many, many causes for issues with engineered wood. I suggest, you sign up for the class this May 31 - 3. There is a post, "Going to St. Louis" below this one.

Some if it is manufacturing, and some is just wood,being wood.

wood happen, checks happen. and then, there are the different finishes. I urge you to think about attending the class. You will learn a lot and enjoy it. Heck, even "Grooving" says he will be there, with his wife, the lawyer. I think she is going with him to keep him out of jail. not sure, but, I think that is the reason.

just kidding guys.

lee

edited by Jim Decker on 12/1/2011

0 permalink
12/1/2011 5:23:34 PM

Jim Decker
Jim Decker
Posts: 241
These two pictures show why checking is most likely to occur although Hoadley states may not manifest inself for as much as two years.
First time I have attached a picture bear with me.

0 permalink
12/1/2011 6:56:12 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 1002
Your in big trouble now tucker. S&M Abuse
0 permalink
12/1/2011 11:01:02 PM

Selva Lee Tucker
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 162
There are many reasons why engineered wood checks,
loose side up is what I think he is talking about Stephen, like in this photo of a board NCSU examined for me. Easy to see, but, I also understand that is the side that is supposed to be down.
They may show up but again, there are many reasons, anyway, enjoy the photo,
by the way, is it manufacturing when engineer wood checks, or just wood being wood?

on this photo, you can actually see where the wood was curling, bending, what ever that is called.
edited by selvalee on 12/1/2011

--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt

Attachments:
loose side up1.jpg
0 permalink
12/1/2011 11:09:30 PM

Selva Lee Tucker
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 162
some more arrows

--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt

0 permalink
12/2/2011 11:22:56 AM

Sharlene
Sharlene
Posts: 3
Thanks for the input everyone, but the issue of liability is not quite clear. Most of us know how checks are formed (I hope), but the question is: If the engineered wood is installed in a dry environment and checks everywhere, who is liable or is anyone liable because this is way this type of flooring will react due to the tiny checks created during the rotary peeling process? If the same product performs installed in Florida and does not check, is the checking a product issue?
0 permalink
12/2/2011 11:27:32 AM

Sharlene
Sharlene
Posts: 3
Regarding the class in May, I will not be able to go but I am hoping to go to the following one.
0 permalink
12/2/2011 1:58:14 PM

Jim Decker
Jim Decker
Posts: 241
Sharlene wrote:
Thanks for the input everyone, but the issue of liability is not quite clear. Most of us know how checks are formed (I hope), but the question is: If the engineered wood is installed in a dry environment and checks everywhere, who is liable or is anyone liable because this is way this type of flooring will react due to the tiny checks created during the rotary peeling process? If the same product performs installed in Florida and does not check, is the checking a product issue?


Clearly manufacturers guidelines must be followed why else would they have them. They know what will happen if you don't.
edited by Jim Decker on 12/2/2011
0 permalink
12/2/2011 2:10:45 PM

Roy Reichow
Roy Reichow
Moderator
Posts: 352
Sharlene

If you can not hold the RH parameters of any prefinished floor manufacture then it should be sold for that particular project that's part of the sales requirement to know what the end users RH capabilities are to ensure warranty. I think it's covered by most manufactures.

--
Roy Reichow
0 permalink
12/2/2011 3:38:23 PM

Selva Lee Tucker
Selva Lee Tucker
Posts: 162
Roy,
now, not arguing but lets have some fun.
Are you saying, that those conditions must be met, in all climates in the U.S. and Canada? Do you use the psychometric charts to see how the moisture changes in an interior environment in relation to the exterior? and if those conditions are entirely possible?

I am going to send you a file, and maybe you can have it posted here. Or, better yet, Doug maybe can.

slt

--
"Life is just too much damn fun to die"
slt
0 permalink
12/2/2011 4:02:16 PM

Roy Reichow
Roy Reichow
Moderator
Posts: 352
Ok let have some fun can I plant a orange or grapefruit tree in MN or Canada? Can you make themgrow and survive through the winter. Some flooring
products may be geographical as well if you can't control the elements whether you're a gardener or flooring manufacture!

--
Roy Reichow
0 permalink
12/2/2011 5:17:58 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 1002
I have walked into several clients homes out here and they already had hunidification systems up and running, easily maintaining 30+ % rh in the interior of the home through all the seasons. And I live in one of the driest areas in the states.



..
edited by grooving on 12/2/2011
0 permalink
12/2/2011 6:44:13 PM

johannes
johannes
Posts: 407
I have seen face checking where the underlaying ply is visible and in other cases where it is just a slight check .

I feel that it is mostly the nature of the product. Only very well controlled veneer production and assembly/gluing where both the underlaying plywood and the wear layer are within average moisture range can a reasonably stable product expected to be produced.

Rushing this process (typical with mass production) will lead to problems (read excessive face checking).

That gets you to the point of where is the product going to be installed, many variations possible there. So, production in a certain environmental condition that suits all geographic locations is basically unrealistic but with careful control should be reasonably achievable.

However, that would cost money which would make such product too expensive for many people and not attractive for a market which is mostly cost/price driven. Cheap rotary peeled engineered products are simply very susceptible to face checking, even higher priced products are still at risk of the same problem, it is just the nature of the product.

In my opinion it is mostly an issue related to the manufacturing process of these products. To some degree the environment the flooring is exposed to plays a role also of course.

Johannes.
0 permalink
12/4/2011 12:02:21 PM

Roy Reichow
Roy Reichow
Moderator
Posts: 352
When I visited Domotex Shanghai last year I learned a lot. As I was going through manufacturers facilities and inspecting some their products I saw some unbelievable flooring. I asked why are these products only shipped to the UK? They simply said the USA won't pay the price for this type of quality and that was the same for China domestic products, they were far superior to ours and cost twice as much. Why we ask? Simply as Johannes pointed out our market is based on cost/price point driven where people look for bottom dollar yet expect best performance. I heard Walmart couldn't even survive in Germany because they would rather go without then buy junk.
The bottom line is we (USA) pays for the ramifications of inferior specifications. Where does this come from? Simply put our importers have the control of the flooring specifications and price which they prefer to price in order to move as much product as possible. The consequences is higher claims placed on the end-user.

Don't get me wrong things do happen even with higher quality flooring products as well it's just the claims to sale ratio is drastically different between them. As Jim pointed out mfrs have their guidelines and one must stick to them or one will see side affects. It's just quality mfrs know they can press those limitations and their products still should perform. So again it's back to price vs. quality regardless of the country one resides in.

--
Roy Reichow
0 permalink
12/5/2011 3:50:55 PM

craigdewitt
craigdewitt
Posts: 125
Roy, isn't that interesting..... We rant and rave and discuss whether all this stuff is manufacturing related or site conditions or installation related, and those guys over there have figured it out and make it without these "features". Still puzzles me why we shoot ourselves in the foot so often.
0 permalink
12/6/2011 9:18:57 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 1002
Roy, I can hardly believe the largest consuming nation in the world cannot afford those products of which you speak of. What exactly were those high grade products?
0 permalink
12/6/2011 10:07:50 AM

David Harrison
David Harrison
Moderator
Posts: 436
Grooving.....we can afford it......its just that our average consumer purchasing flooring is always drawn toward the lowest price ( and expect the highest quality).......it is frustrating ( in my case) to start the conversation about quality etc only to find out that the end user is 2 persons away from me......the end result of this is that the proper information does not get to the end user.....but the price does.....the reality is many people who want hardwood flooring really can't afford it. but they will buy something that is in their budget that is made out of wood ( or something that looks like wood)....I don't think our industry is that different from other industries that have the same struggle with quality being recognized as the important issue that it should be......too often ( to the consumer) the visual will out weigh the actual quality of the product.......I am still finding that the average consumer ( from my perspective) wants something to satisfy their budget that looks good ( to them)......they don't care about all the stuff we like to talk about here because they don't want to have to really understand all of the mechanics of wood......they just want a floor that looks good.......Think about the last time you went to purchase an expensive electronic device.......how much technology were you willing to absorb and understand to make the best long term purchase? I suspect most of us just want to hear the surface fluff that makes us feel good about the purchase and a little tech thrown in so we don't get too board and walk out of the store........this is just my take on years of dealing with and talking to consumers, dealers and mfgs. And I found myself in the same category the last time I purchased an electronic device......I simply didn't know enough about the product and industry to know what questions to ask......most salesmen will only tell you what they think you need to hear....that will usually close the deal....too much tech stuff and the average consumer gets confused.....and that prevents them from making a decision to purchase at that time.....good salesmen know this.....this is just my 2 cents.....I know there are exceptions to what I am saying but this is the impression I am left with after many years in the industry....And I believe this is why the people with enough money to purchase in container quantities purchase the cheaper stuff......it simply moves faster through the industry...
edited by dharrison on 12/6/2011
0 permalink
12/6/2011 10:10:01 AM

Roy Reichow
Roy Reichow
Moderator
Posts: 352
Craig I too wonder why we have so many problems where other countries do not. Just look at the UK installer and moisture testing, if you want flooring then I'm in control and not the GC. When I sell flooring I'm in control, not the retailer selling builder grade or low end material. When I close out with end-user I'm in control and they have a 4 part checklist in understanding the importance of moisture control. I sell a complete package not a compromised package. We have a lot of open ends in our industry here where UK stands firm on guidelines. Where do we fail and that starts with manufacture guidelines given to the OEM manufacture by importers. I saw 11% MC was a green light for our USA products, Craig what states could support those MC levels? Not many and you are right the circle goes round and round yet the high end manufactures have a very low claims ratio.

Grooving go to Domotex next year and look for yourselves, you will be impressed, one booth had over a 1,000 different high end parquets. Another is where the manufacture built in radiant heat strips into the engineered wood floor, temp was 78F, I know I measured it myself. Then you will also see budget material focused to USA markets, cheap you bet but remember you get what you pay for.

So when you back to basics and checking where does it begin and where does it end? Better material and better standards.......

--
Roy Reichow
0 permalink

Home » Troubleshooting/Inspections » checking of engineered wood



CONNECT WITH HF
FEATURED SUPPLIERS