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Home » Installation » Expert Advice needed! Sika T55??

Unfinished, prefinished, subfloor prep, etc.
9/13/2011 3:07:17 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 951
I hate it when people make blanket ststements like "You cannot install solid over concrete" This is why the NWFA and people like Howard need to rewrite the manual or think outa the box they read from. It can be done, it can be done below grade as well. I also talked to Mullican about installing below grade with a floating ply subfloor protected with mvp4 and six mil, and the tech guy just puppeted the usual answer they want him to say.

Exhibit No. 1 And guess what adhesive they recommend? http://www.wideplankflooring.com/m/carlisle-concrete-2009.pdf
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9/14/2011 9:00:45 AM

Jim Decker
Jim Decker
Posts: 225
Your right grooving anything can be done if all contingencies are covered. We have glued direct to concrete, never below grade but in El Paso TX we have few basements, BUT as Charles Peterson outlines IF the boards are flat and true otherwise the force necessary to hold it in place until the glue dries isn't there. While we have clients in El Paso with plenty of money they are not particularly disposed to part with it. As usual they are always looking for the less costly way of doing things and if an installer or company allows themselves to participate it quite frequently costs us. Occasionally one can find a client willing to pay but not so much here.
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9/14/2011 7:05:34 PM

wchardwood92860
wchardwood92860
Posts: 1
Olivia wrote:
I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time with my question. Has anyone used Sika T55 to glue solid hardwood floor onto concrete? Have you met with success? I can't find any hard evidence that it's not recommended. Please point me in the right direction.

Additional info:
Above grade concrete subfloor (1960's building - I'm told that there's no need for a moisture vapor for such an old building, is this true?)
In DC
Mullican select solid white oak hardwood 5" x 3/4" unfinished, natural

Thanks in advance, and I'm a newbie to this, so any advice and simple language would be appreciated.
edited by texasolivia on 2/1/2011
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9/14/2011 7:18:37 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 951
Your going to have to go beyound Mullican for milling and quality to do that. See my link avove to Carlisile. There's quite a few manufacturers who make products like they do. Myself, I would go the 3 ply x 3/4 inch long plank just for stability. That lumber has just as much meat on it for refinishing as does any solid 3/4.
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9/28/2011 8:36:47 AM

SikaEd
SikaEd
Posts: 1
SikaBond T55 can generally be used without primer to bond engineered or solid wood flooring onto properly prepared, structurally sound, clean, concrete, cementitious underlayments and other substrates. Since ambient moisture will affect how the wood floor behaves, i.e. expands, contracts during service, Sika always recommends following the wood floor manufacturer's recommendations and limitations as to wood acclimation,moisture content, equilibrium moisture content, spacing, etc. to help reduce any future moisture related wood floor problems. Once cured our adhesives are not affected by moisture. For the best level of protection of the wood-floor against sub-floor moisture Sika recommends the use of our SikaPrimer MB. The use of the primer would be dependent upon moisture testing performed prior to the installation. The allowable application limits can be found in the current product data sheet issued for this product. NWFA recommends the use of moisture testing devices that can identify actual moisture content in percentages (Ref. NWFA, Installing Wood Floors, Chapter 3, Moisture Testing) Moisture testing can typically be conducted by using one or a combination of the following test methods. Tramex (www.tramexltd.com) or similar type surface moisture meter. CM (Calcium Carbide) Method (www.formtest.de) or a Relative Humidity Test per ASTM F2170 (www.delmhorst.com). Sika's permissible moisture levels as found in our current product data sheets are based on Tramex and the CM Method. When using the Relative Humidity Test a relative humidity of 55% is considered acceptable when using our products. Sika has numerous successful installations bonding wood flooring onto concrete. Additional information can be found on our website www.sikaconstruction.com
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9/28/2011 11:52:18 AM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 951
Ed, nice of you to post that info. I am amazed you guys still allow a concrete meter test.

And as you talk about the rh humidity test, is that 55% number ambient air humidity or the result for the Calcium Carbide test? I have not heard of people using carbide testing here in the states. It is usualy calcium chloride as they are different methods altogether.

In case people don't know the difference between the two, here is a thread that discusses a calcium carbide test method.
http://www.wagnermeters.com/concreteforum/Thread-Specific-humidity-or-ERH-or-Calcium-Carbide

Thanks!

..
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9/28/2011 2:38:17 PM

Teak Master
Teak Master
Posts: 1
I used Sikabond T-8. Pasted on concrete teak. Very good result.

--
We will make you beautiful!
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9/28/2011 9:33:35 PM

neil moss
neil moss
Posts: 13
Olivia,
As previously stated by the Sika representative Sikabond IS recommended for direct application of solid hardwood flooring. Unfortunately, if I were you, I would be totally frustrated with all the information found on this thread. Some said that the National Wood Flooring Association does not recommend direct glue down application of solid flooring. Not so..they should either read their industry guidelines or get an updated version. Specifically the NWFA recommends that one follow the adhesive manufacturers recommendations. To relieve your mind a bit, there are thousands if not millions of square feet of wood installtions similar to this throughout North America and far more than that in Europe. Keep "Europe" in the back of your mind as this will come up later in this dessertation.

The correct application relates specifically to the adhesive manufacturer's methods rather than the wood manufacturer. Dependant upon the product selected (wood) some difficulties may occur in the application if the wood has distortions that make "pulling" it tight difficult. More straps to tighten it =more time. Other than milling and the method of milling it is still wood. The shorter the product the easier it is tighten as the closer joints make it easier to pull the product together (flexible in length). Even if short it becomes more difficult to tighten the floor as the product becomes wider simply because it is more rigid (more volume). If we assume, at this point, that the wood CAN be installed using this method the next step is the adhesive SYSTEM.

Sika has several methods, one with an acoustic barrrier, another with a moisture retardant and a third with no moisture retardant...all of which require testing the concrete for moisture. No matter what the age of a slab, moisture can be a problem and one should ALWAYS test for it. Think of concrete as nothing more than a rigid form of sponge. The method suggested by Sika is a tried and true system that has been used for decades in Europe. It's actually a reconfiguration of soil engineering testis and is quite accurate. It's not used much here as the test creates acetylene gas (contained but highly flammable). It measures the quantity of acetylene produced via carbide granules combined with core concrete (and the moisture in it) which is then converted to a moisture content level on a gas meter. I hate to get into this "rocket science" but that is how it is done, there are a lot of other methods that give equally accurate results but since this is an adhesive that originates in Europe and this is one of their testing methods they use their method instead of ours. Any method of concrete moisture testing is fine as long as the results are accurate.

It is really difficult to define what your problem really is. What it IS NOT is that the application SYSTEM is wrong. How it is used may be, but the system itself is well tested, well used and quite good. You mention so many things that are in conflict with one another it is difficult to discern what the cause of your problem may be. Hollow spots are not abnormal over concrete, some highs an lows may exist in thew subfloorand the product may still be well bonded. Spacing between the rows of adhesive leave airspace=hollow spots. If an acoustic barrier was used (part of a Sika system) then hollow spots throughout the whole floor(the acoustics) would be expected. Total release from the subfloor would obviously be of concern but occur for a variety of reasons...not always manufacturer or installtion related. End splits are generally counter-evidence from what you reported. Perhaps your floor does need to be replace in accordance with the inspectors report. The question is not if...but why. My guess is that if you looked at your own floor you'd know if it needs to be replaced. What you need to know is why it failed and who is responsible...even if it may be yourself. I'd suggest that you kget in touch with Sika either direct or through your wood system provider for an inspection or get a qualified and certified inspector. A reminder...if the floor is releasing from the concrete NO ONE will be able to give you an accurate report without removing materials to see UNDER the wood.

Sorry for grammar and spelling errors but there is no "spellright" on this site

Hope this helps
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9/28/2011 10:05:25 PM

Stephen Perrera
Stephen Perrera
Posts: 951
Jesus Neil, who are you? You extensive knowledge is blowing my mind. Your certainly not the average, your knowledge of the flooring industry and adhesives is exemplarily to say the least.

P.S. My word iespell word checker does not work here either.
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9/29/2011 7:00:17 AM

Joe Hostler
Joe Hostler
Posts: 1
Nicely done Neil. A couple of minor notes, as you said, not all adhesives are the same. There are at least 4 chemistries in various wood flooring adhesives currently. Polyurethanes are chemically incompatible with vinyl while modified silicones are not so it is VERY important to follow the adhesive manufacturer's installation instructions. There are millions of feet of these products installed in America quite successfully but if you don't follow the instructions exactly you are asking for a failure. Finally, I would second the use of straps and weights on any solid glue down.
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